Shooting and combined formations

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Andyjp
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Shooting and combined formations

Postby Andyjp » Wed May 03, 2017 9:13 pm

From the errata
Combined Formations: Third paragraph: Replace “All bases containing archers in a Combined Formation throw 1D6 when shooting-the usual second row bonus does not apply” with “All bases containing archers in a Combined Formation throw 1D6 per two bases (rounded up) when shooting”.

So here is the rub
1. Why is a deeper unit better at shooting than a unit in a single rank of bases, should the bonus per two bases not be applied to the front rank and not the rear? The way I see it is a unit in a single rank would shoot better than a unit in a deeper formation (surely archers in the rear ranks firing overhead would not be as effective as those who can see the enemy themselves).

2. currently Shooting with 6 bases of Persian infantry archers in two ranks, shoot with 8 dice; If the unit gets some Spara bearers (making it a combined unit) then it shoots with 3 dice. The Spara bearer was the front figure of a file of ten infantry, so 10% of the unit. Yet the unit is dropping from 8 dice to 3 a drop of over 60%. Would a better system be to treat all bases as shooting as normal then deduct a percentage of dice, equivalent to the percentage of non archers in the unit; don’t fear the maths as this should be 25%, 50%, or 75% (1/4,1/2,or 3/4) for most cases. So my Persians now with one rank of Spara and a rank of archers on the front row of bases and then a row of bases with archers only would lose 25% of the dice, therefore 8 down to 6 (as things currently stand) we can round up or down as Martian decides. A unit of roman legionaries with 6 bases and only with a ¼ of them being archers would only get 2 dice.

3. It now would also now make sense to remove the bonus for every two bases shooting but only if the bonus is applied to the front rank (see point 1), because now in a combined formation the very front rank will now be non archers, i.e. the Spara bearers or Legionaries. If this was done my example would give 6 bases of Persians shoot with 6 * 0.75 = 4.5 rounded up to 5 dice as the unit has ¾ archers; Legionaries 6 * 0.25 =1.5 rounded up to 2 dice as the unit has ¼ archers.

what do you guys think?
Cheers
Andy

"Religious wars are basically people killing each other over who has the better imaginary friend" -Napoleon Bonaparte

MartinG
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby MartinG » Thu May 11, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi Andy,

This post hasn't generated any replies but I have gone back to revisit the area.
The reason a deep formation of archers is more effective, in my opinion, is that it combines direct, flat trajectory shooting with overhead fire. A Shield can only be used against one type of shooting at a time, so the receiving unit is seriously inconvenienced by this.
As far as I am concerned the rules as shown in the rulebook model this simply and pretty well. I have been trying to find my notes to see why we put the errata in and I can't locate them. If nothing turns up to change my mind therefore, I will consider removing the errata (may be a first!)
Cheers

Martin
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

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lero
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Location: Paris

Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby lero » Thu May 11, 2017 9:11 pm

Hello,
Think that my byzantine will strongly approve removing the errata, because archer support are really too weak in their opinion (would then be glad to have a slight chance of demoralizing my norman infantry opponent ;-))...
Byzantine strategos.

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Andyjp
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby Andyjp » Fri May 12, 2017 12:04 pm

Hi Andy,

This post hasn't generated any replies but I have gone back to revisit the area.
The reason a deep formation of archers is more effective, in my opinion, is that it combines direct, flat trajectory shooting with overhead fire. A Shield can only be used against one type of shooting at a time, so the receiving unit is seriously inconvenienced by this.
As far as I am concerned the rules as shown in the rulebook model this simply and pretty well. I have been trying to find my notes to see why we put the errata in and I can't locate them. If nothing turns up to change my mind therefore, I will consider removing the errata (may be a first!)
Cheers

Martin
I can see the argument for deeper formations working so no problem there, with my Assyrian slingers limbering up as we speak.

The effect the Errata has on combined units is too great and should be removed in my opinion. The rules as written work well as make sence (now after explanation) but how do you make it work taking into account the percentage of shooters in units? 1/4,1/2, 3/4
We could pre do the maths and give a little table to use, thus keeping the game flowing as there is a limited number of combinations and outcomes.
Or simply make it units with 3/4 archers (or all archers) keep the depth bonus for shooting units with 1/2 or 1/4 do not. Which would work for examples of the Persians, Sumarians.....
Cheers
Andy

"Religious wars are basically people killing each other over who has the better imaginary friend" -Napoleon Bonaparte

MartinG
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby MartinG » Sat May 13, 2017 4:17 pm

I don't see the advantage of a table. Under the unamended rules, a formation of 6 bases of archers gets 8 dice. A 6 base combined formation which is 25% archers gets 6 dice. If it is 50% or 25% archers it gets 3 dice. This models the reducing effectiveness in a nice simple way.
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

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Andyjp
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby Andyjp » Mon May 15, 2017 8:45 am

I don't see the advantage of a table. Under the unamended rules, a formation of 6 bases of archers gets 8 dice. A 6 base combined formation which is 25% archers gets 6 dice. If it is 50% or 25% archers it gets 3 dice. This models the reducing effectiveness in a nice simple way.
Hi Mate think you've got a bit of a typo in there, did you mean 75% gets six dice?
Cheers
Andy

"Religious wars are basically people killing each other over who has the better imaginary friend" -Napoleon Bonaparte

MartinG
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby MartinG » Tue May 23, 2017 3:08 pm

err...yes. Note the erratum is being withdrawn today
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

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lero
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby lero » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:50 am

This return to original rules is very good. Byzantines armies approved !!!

grompix
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby grompix » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:18 pm

We have just played the first SwordPoint Crusades game at our club. A few (cough) questions cropped up but we managed to come up with answers that at least allowed the game to continue to a satisfactory conclusion. Ploughing through the rulebook today (as you do on a Sunday morning!), it occurred to me that the combined formation rule needs a bit of clarification (at least to me anyhow).

One of our members has his Arab Caliphate infantry mounted with mixed spears and bows on the same bases whereas I have my collection mounted on separate spearmen and archer bases so I can position the archer bases at the rear of the spearmen. Both types are mentioned on page 42 in the rules. The rules on combined formations (2nd paragraph) state that a mixed spearmen/archer base counts for all purposes as a spearmen base but shoots as an archer base.

As I see it, a 6 mixed-base unit (representing 50% archers) is thus able to roll 6 dice when shooting (all 6 bases shooting) but my 6 base 50% archer/spearmen unit made up of 3 bases of archers and 3 bases of spearmen only roll 3 dice shooting.

...and of course in combat mixed archer/spearmen bases act as spearmen too.

Am I missing something here or should I start rebasing my Arab Caliphate mixed unit infantry?

Chris ;)

Bob Stradling
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby Bob Stradling » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:56 pm

If they are shooting they will not get the benefit of the shield to save against incoming shots would be one disadvantage of having every base mixed.


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