Shooting and combined formations

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grompix
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby grompix » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:15 am

If they are shooting they will not get the benefit of the shield to save against incoming shots would be one disadvantage of having every base mixed.
That was one of my initial thoughts too but then I reckoned that the archers would be shooting from behind the spearmen on the mixed archer/spearmen bases - so the unshielded rule wouldn't apply.

MartinG
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby MartinG » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:36 am

You can't have a unit made up of 6 mixed bases. It must be: 3 spear and 3 mixed, =25% archers; or 3 spear and 3 bow, representing 50% archers; or 3 mixed and 3 bow, representing 75% archers (depending on what the army list allows). See above for the dice generated.
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

grompix
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby grompix » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:55 pm

You can't have a unit made up of 6 mixed bases. It must be: 3 spear and 3 mixed, =25% archers; or 3 spear and 3 bow, representing 50% archers; or 3 mixed and 3 bow, representing 75% archers (depending on what the army list allows). See above for the dice generated.
Ahh - gotcha!
So, you don't need to use mixed bases unless the mounting of archers and spearmen on their own bases doesn't divide neatly into 25%, 50% or 75% (whatever the army lists stipulate).
8 and 12 base units divide neatly into separate archer/spearman bases for 25%, 50% and 75% archer strengths but other unit sizes may need a mixed base or two to portray the proportions correctly.
I think I've got that now.
Just need to figure a way to gently persuade my friend and opponent to rip some of his archer figs off their bases (cough)
Thanks Martin
Chris ;)

grompix
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby grompix » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:25 pm

Ah but...
I've just read in the SwordPoint living FAQ this question and answer: -

Q. How are combined units based? For example, if I have a unit of 8 late roman legionaries in a combined formation with half archers, do all the bases have two legionaries at the front and two archers behind them? Also, if I have the same unit and have paid for Heavy Armour upgrade (+2) to make each stand 24pts, do I minus the points for having archers combined, reducing the cost of each base
A. If a combine unit has 50% archers, it must deploy as one of the following:
(A) A single row of bases, each containing both sorts of figures, or,
(B) A row of legionary bases with a row of archer bases behind, or,
(C) Two rows of legionaries with two rows of archers behind.
A mixed base costs as per the more expensive troop type, including any upgrades.

According to answer (A) it appears you CAN have a unit of 6 mixed bases (which is the way my friend has them). Answer (B) is the organisation I use.
This seems to highlight my original query that a single row of 6 mixed archer/spearman bases shoots with 6 dice but mounting archer figures on separate bases in a second rank only generates 3 bases/dice (out of a combined unit of 6). Obviously I'm talking 50% archers here as in the FAQ above.
So - is the FaQ correct or author Martin Gibbins?
At the moment I'm putting my money on Martin's answer - unless I'm missing something - again!
Sigh!
Chris ;(

MartinG
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby MartinG » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:23 pm

Ok now I understand. It is possible for a unit including 50% archers to form in a single row of mixed bases. However it is then stuck in that formation, unless you have the separate spear and archer bases to form it in two rows with archers only at the back and fighting troops only at the front. In a single row it is more susceptible in combat, as it has no depth bonus.
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

grompix
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby grompix » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:21 am

I see.
Many thanks for the clarification(s) Martin.
Chris ;)

Robin
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby Robin » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:38 am

Hi sorry just noticed this post. I have copied below from the medieval book section where I originally posted.

Need to clarify how to Base up figures for combined formation. Later crusaders. Unit of 10 loose order bases.
Front rank 2 spear figures. 1 archer. Per base.
Rear rank 2 archer figures. 1 spear. Per Base.
That's 10 loose order bases with 10 shots.
Is that correct ?

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A Lot of Gaul
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby A Lot of Gaul » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:14 pm

Robin - What does the Later Crusader army list say is the proper percentage for this type of combined unit? A combined formation can have 25%, 50%, or 75% archers. As outlined by Martin above, only a single-rank deep combined unit can have all of its bases mixed as you describe, and it would be 50% archers, so 5 shots. A 2-rank deep combined formation equivalent to yours (first rank spears, second rank bows) would also be 50% archers, so 5 shots. But again, it really comes down to the percentage listed for that type of unit in the army list.
"Experience is the teacher of all things."
~ Gaius Julius Caesar

KazadHarri
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby KazadHarri » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:28 pm

Cross Posted from Facebook: Not to throw any more mud on this, but I am looking at the same issue, but have a different take on it. The Later Crusader list has no percentages in the list of archers to spearman. So those rules, or guidelines do not apply. It just says that they can be in Combined Formation or Mixed order with Crusading Spearman. In the First Paragraph of the Combined Formation rule it says, "The whole unit will count as Close Order if it contains any close order troops." So this tells me if you are going to use the Combined formation, that the unit is Close Order not Open Order. This reasoning is also backed up by looking at the military orders list that states, Sergeants with ranged weapons may be in Mixed Order with sergeants with spear. Crusading Infantry with bow or crossbow and not combined with spearman are Open Order. Looking at both of these list it seems to be telling me that if you Combine Archers and Spearmen you are in Closed Order, not open. You can then have the mix of spearman bases and archer bases, or mixed spearmen/archer bases per the combined formation rule. So the rank structure could be /Sp, Sp / /Sp, Ar/ or /Sp, Sp/ /Ar, Ar/ or lastly /Sp, Ar/ /Ar,Ar/ Should be even clearer now.

So shooting dice of a 6 base unit would be 3 dice in in the first two examples (25%, and 50%), and 6 dice in the last (75%) .

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A Lot of Gaul
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Re: Shooting and combined formations

Postby A Lot of Gaul » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:57 am

In response to Robin's post on this subject in the Facebook group (I don't 'do' FB):

1. The unit cannot be Open Order, as the rule clearly states that "the whole unit will count as Close Order if it contains any Close Order troops."

2. I agree that some of the wording in the Combined Formations rule is ambiguous, but the second paragraph clearly spells out the basing options and the percentages to which they correlate, i.e. that 3:1 spearmen to archers give you 25% archers; 1:1 (single row of bases) or 2/2 gives you 50% archers; 1:3 gives you 75% archers. On top of that, Martin has mentioned more than once that the Combined Formation rule does not allow you to 'mix up' the spearman and archer figures on each base, and that the options listed in in the second paragraph are the only ones available.

3. However you choose to base your figures, the unit doesn't shoot at 100% just because every base has an archer figure on it. In the example you have given, there are 30 figures on 10 bases. 15 of those figures (50%) are archers (1:1), and so the unit has 50% shooting dice. If it helps, you can think of it this way: 100% of the Combined Formation bases are shooting, but at only 50% strength. 10 bases at 100% strength (no depth bonus) = 10 dice, whereas 10 bases at 50% strength = 5 dice. Perhaps an erratum to this effect is in order, for the sake of clarity.

4. Another possible approach would be to determine the proportions of spearmen to archers for such combined units in historical Crusader armies, and then build your tabletop units to reflect those. :)
Last edited by A Lot of Gaul on Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Experience is the teacher of all things."
~ Gaius Julius Caesar


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