Possible Rules Amendments

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MartinG
Posts: 348
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Possible Rules Amendments

Postby MartinG » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:08 pm

Below are some rule changes which I am considering, prompted by player feedback and that reliable indicator, list choices for tournaments. I am looking for comments on the proposals please:
-Troops armed with bows, longbows or crossbows and no named melee weapon are Inferior Fighters.
-Inferior Fighters hit all but other Inferior Fighters on a 5+ in combat.
-Levy missile troops do not get the bonus archery dice when shooting.
-Levy troops who lose a combat read the result table one line lower than normal.
-Warbands may not make voluntary retirements.
-Skirmishers may move in any direction without movement penalty. They still lose 25% of their move when changing formation.

Thanks.
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

billS
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:02 pm

Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby billS » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:53 pm

- Yes
- Yes
- - Possibly, but how about inferior shooters. Leave the bonus but hit on 5+ short range, 6+ long range?
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes

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Wayne Richards
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Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby Wayne Richards » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:41 pm

Hi Martin - some good suggestions there. I prefer a rule change to a points change as it is easier to implement (ie the army lists wouldn't need changing). My thoughts as follows;

- "Troops armed with bows, longbows or crossbows and no named melee weapon are Inferior Fighters" - I assume this would apply to infantry and cavalry alike. There are some instances where troops armed with just a bow are listed as superior fighters - i.e. the Mangudai in the Mongol list. I assume that where this is the case they would retain their Superior Fighter ability ?

-Inferior Fighters hit all but other Inferior Fighters on a 5+ in combat - yes I think this is a good solution and better than other options such as limiting bow armed troops to 1 D6 per base when in combat.

-Levy missile troops do not get the bonus archery dice when shooting - Yes. I would consider going further and say that "Inferior Shooter" do not get the bonus archery dice when shooting.

-Levy troops who lose a combat read the result table one line lower than normal - Yes. Likewise I would consider applying this to "Inferior Fighters" as well as Levies.

-Warbands may not make voluntary retirements - No, I think the problem would be is determining what constituted a "voluntary retirement", are we saying that they may never about face and move back ? I would agree that they should not be allowed to Disengage once in combat.

-Skirmishers may move in any direction without movement penalty. They still lose 25% of their move when changing formation. - Yes, but currently they loose 50% of their movement when changing formation. I would stick with this reduction rather than the 25% which is too lenient.

Cheers W.

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A Lot of Gaul
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Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby A Lot of Gaul » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:58 pm

Hi Martin -

I largely agree with all of the proposed rule changes. My specific comments follow:

"Troops armed with bows, longbows or crossbows and no named melee weapon are Inferior Fighters."
I agree. In regard to Wayne's comment about the Mangudai and other bow-armed Superior Fighters, my thinking is that they should perhaps be rated as Superior Shooters instead.

"Inferior Fighters hit all but other Inferior Fighters on a 5+ in combat."
I agree.

"Levy missile troops do not get the bonus archery dice when shooting."
I agree. I also like Wayne's addendum applying this to all Inferior Shooters.

"Levy troops who lose a combat read the result table one line lower than normal."
I agree with this, along with Wayne's suggestion to apply this to all Inferior Fighters.

"Warbands may not make voluntary retirements."
I agree, if by this you mean that Warbands should not be able to do a voluntary About Face and move away from an opposing unit, and unless someone can offer some historical instances where such a thing is recorded as having actually happened - I can’t think of any myself. I also concur with Wayne's suggestion that Warbands should not be able to Disengage from combat, once joined.

"Skirmishers may move in any direction without movement penalty. They still lose 25% of their move when changing formation."
I agree, but I also concur with Wayne's response that Skirmishers should continue to use up half of their normal move distance to change formation.

All in all, some very good proposed changes!

Cheers,
Scott
Last edited by A Lot of Gaul on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Mikeharding
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:53 pm

Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby Mikeharding » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:59 am

Martin,

I agree with Wayne's suggestions above, especially the comment on Inferior Shooters should get the same rule adjustment as Levy archers.

On Wayne's point about having , no named melee weapon but being Superior Fighter, it would be easy to add to the main rules that "Troops armed with bows, longbows or crossbows and no named melee weapon are Inferior Fighters, unless they are classed as Superior Fighter in the army list"

On the Warbands rule update, I took that as only applying to Disengagement, but again it is easy to just add "Warbands may not use the Disengagement rule".

Mike

Bob Stradling
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Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby Bob Stradling » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:16 am

Martin my thoughts for what they are worth:

Having brought a shed load of archers to maintain parity in the escalating firestorm, I would be happy to see players given a reason for not taking lots of archers. So penalties for purely bow armed troops is an intersting way to go.

Wayne makes a number of good points.

-Troops armed with bows, longbows or crossbows and no named melee weapon are Inferior Fighters. This could work nicely

-Inferior Fighters hit all but other Inferior Fighters on a 5+ in combat. - This in combination with the change above could really help to redress the perceived imbalance betwween shooting and non-shooting units,

-Levy missile troops do not get the bonus archery dice when shooting. I am torn between this and Wayne's suggestion. If there were no other changes proposed then I would go with Wayne, but because of the other changes I think losing the bonus dice for levy would be sufficient

-Levy troops who lose a combat read the result table one line lower than normal. - not at all certain about this. I think with them hitting on a 5+ against non levy and being hit on a 3 or 4 by everyone else should give sufficent advantage to the non-levy, other wise they will be taking tests nearly every combat.

-Warbands may not make voluntary retirements. - again some clarification here retirement or disengaement - perhaps if enemy is within 12" (or charge range for cavalry) and in the front arc, then they can only stand or move forward (and sideways as far as permitted) rather than being allowed to undertake tactical withdrawals

-Skirmishers may move in any direction without movement penalty. They still lose 25% of their move when changing formation. - I am not sure there should be no penalty for striking out in a totally different direction. I would suggest a 25% reduction in movement if they move out side of the front arc that other units use to delinate the scope of their movement. This still makes them more maneuverable than other units but still uses the basic mechanism of a 25% reduction for going outsde set paramenters.

I am happy to trial these at the six bells invitational in June if you want to do a reasonable play test.

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A Lot of Gaul
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Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby A Lot of Gaul » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:33 pm

Martin, et al. -

Since we are discussing potential rule amendments for skirmishers, what do you think of limiting skirmish units to a maximum of four bases, and making foot skirmishers eligible to shoot from the first row of bases only? After all, skirmish units are supposed to be fragile, and I have always envisioned foot skirmisher units as looking like this:

XXXX

Rather than this:

XXX
XXX

And mounted skirmishers as looking like this:

XX
XX

Rather than this:

XXX
XXX

Cheers,
Scott
Last edited by A Lot of Gaul on Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KazadHarri
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:26 am

Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby KazadHarri » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:06 pm

I agree with "A lot of Gaul" comments. Think penalties should apply to inferior shooters, and all levy troops should be inferior.

DennisW
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby DennisW » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:24 pm

My thoughts on inferior troops would be hitting on 5+ in melee against all but other inferior. Keep their combat resolution line as it is, not going one line down.

Another question would be skirmishers slowing down close order troops to 4" movement. eg Shouldn't the well trained Spartans sweep all before them instead of closing up ready to fight some peasants throwing rocks?

Page 20 middle diagram implies movement within 135 degree arc if the front corners do not cross. Maybe I missed something but units may incline forwards in the arc of vision, even close order warband can do this. Units could even do this "close to" the enemy when they would be more inclined to charge directly ahead or brace for a charge

mumakil666
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:54 pm

Re: Possible Rules Amendments

Postby mumakil666 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:22 pm

I disagree with the penalties for inferior fighter and levies in melee. The cost of an inferior fighter cavalry or infantry is not big enough to justify such changes. The effectiveness of these troops becomes too weak to be present in an army.
The proposition for the levies "Levy troops who lose a combat read the result table one line lower than normal" is an aggravating factor for troops with weak cohesion and no bonus for being in C in C command radius.

however, I agree :
Troops armed with bows, longbows or crossbows and no named melee weapon are Inferior Fighters. YES
Levy missile troops do not get the bonus archery dice when shooting. No because it is an aggravating factor for levies with inferior shooters. I prefer : "levy troops with missile weapons are inferior shooters"


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