Burgundian Ordnance questions

Xarepunk
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby Xarepunk » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:53 pm

As with the Swiss, I also have some questions about their opponents, the Burgundian Ordnance.

1. Household Guard 1: The list states "The smallest Knight unit may be upgraded to Guard". How does the count work for this? Example: I am planning an army with two combined units (3 x Knights/3 x Retainers) plus Household Guard. Can I have 3 bases of Guard (as both other units only have 3 Knights) or up to 5 bases of Guard (as I have 6 bases of Knights in total, split into two units filled up with 3 Retainers)?

2. Household Guard 2: Historically there was a contingent of Household Guard Longbow Archers. Could I upgrade the smallest unit of Ordnance Archers with "Stubborn" and "Veteran"? What would be the points costs, (+3 or +6)?

3. How is the "Combined Formation" of Archers/Pikemen work? It states "Up to a thrid of the models may get a Pike". This does not fit precisely into the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 Archers declaration in the rulebook. As I see it, the only formation fitting would be 3 bases of Pikes and 6 bases of Archers. Or is it also possible to build them as "3/4 Archers" with a row of mixed bases (2 Pike/2 Archers) and a row of Archers?
This would allow for far more formations (3x2 bases, 4x2 bases, 4x3 bases).

4. Where is the option to field Ordnance Foot Crossbowmen and Handgunners as skirmishers? Is it missing on purpose?

MartinG
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:48 am

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby MartinG » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:16 pm

1. For the above configuration you would get 3 bases of guard.
2. You could use the Scot Guard entry in the Late medieval French list, or upgrade ordonnance archers as you suggest for +3 points.
3. You can either use 25% pike, with the pikemen forming the front rank of the front row of bases, or have 3 pike and 6 archer bases as you mention.
4. We felt Open Order was a better representation of these troops.
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

Xarepunk
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby Xarepunk » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:16 pm

Thanks for the answers. They really help me planning my army building.

2. Using the Scots Guards is a great idea. They should be even more effective at a lower points cost. I will try out bott versions. Should they be limited to 3 bases (in the French list) or to "the smallest unit of Archers" (like the Guards Knights)?

3. Great, this opens up a lot more options. I will probably use 3x 6 or 8 bases at 1/4 instead of 9 bases at 1/3.

4. Okay, that's what I was suspecting, but wanted to make sure.

Another thing, which I want to get 'officially approved': The Burgundian crossbowmen did sometimes use Pavises and I have built some. I want to use them at +4 p/base like in some other lists. Would that be 'legal'?

As this thread turns out to be about improving the Burgundy army List, if you ever plan a 2nd edition or want to publish an Errata, please, feel free to use my ideas for it (if you want to give me credit, I won't stop you, of course^^)

MartinG
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:48 am

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby MartinG » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:52 pm

Yes Pavises would be fine at +4 pts. I will put this in the errata (which is continually updated, on line).
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

Xarepunk
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby Xarepunk » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:55 pm

Already saw it in the errata. Thanks, man, you are really quick.

Xarepunk
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby Xarepunk » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:57 pm

Another suggestion:

In his chronicle Phillip de Comines comments on the Burgundian Feudal Knights not being proficient in the proper usage of Lances, due to the long period of peace. Therefore I propose the following addition, waiting for (official) approval:

Feudal Knights may be fielded without Lance (-5) becoming Massed Cavalry instead of Shock Cavalry.

@MartinG:
I sincerly hope that you are not getting sick already of my tinkering with you well thought out lists. I am really thankful for the release of Swordpoint and its Medieval Armies book. Please, just take it as constructive criticism and my small contribution to making the lists even more historically accurate and fun.

MartinG
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:48 am

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby MartinG » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:05 pm

I would not expect these chaps to be able to hold formation sufficiently well to be classed as Massed Cavalry. There are various alternative routes if you want to reduce the effectiveness of the feudal knights:
downgrade from lance to spear (-1)
downgrade from lance to spear and remove the Shock cavalry rule (-5)
remove Shock Cavalry rule and lance (-6)
or what you have proposed, if you disagree with me.
You can try any of these options, I can't see an opponent complaining because you have downgraded troops!
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

Xarepunk
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:16 pm

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby Xarepunk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:31 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. I think they are al very viable.
But I think my original option would be best in spirit with the other lists. I was looking at the Late HRE and Imperial lists, where it states:
"Knights can have Spear (+1) or Lances (+5) or nothing. Knights with Lances are Shock Cavalry, without Lances they are Massed Cavalry"

Therefore: No Lances (-5) or Lances to Spear (-4) and all are Massed Calvalry seems the way to go, without distorting the lists.
Please, fell free to disagree.

MartinG
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:48 am

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby MartinG » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 am

I think the Burgundian feudal horse can be differentiated from the Imperial knights, so I've offered alternative ways of reflecting their performance for you to use if you wish. None of this is compulsory, and you don't need my approval to alter lists as you feel right in your own games.
"No one ever achieved anything without making a few mistakes along the way"

DennisW
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Re: Burgundian Ordnance questions

Postby DennisW » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:18 pm

I saw that mounted retainers are D3. I assume this is a typo and should be D4?


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