Scottish medieval list 1250 to 1500.

Fedelmid
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Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:04 am

Scottish medieval list 1250 to 1500.

Postby Fedelmid » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:29 am

I'm very curious as to why the Scottish medieval list does not contain any schiltron formations (pike) when they used pike as early as 1298, agreed these where very basic to start with however they improved and rectilinier schiltrons where used from the 14 century onwards as a counter to English heavy horse. It seems odd that these rather vital formations are not covered in the scots medieval list , and don't appear until the renaissance list.
As an later Irish kingdoms 830AD to 1500AD player , I'm not to impressed with the fact my Medieval Scottish allies 1250AD to 1500AD lack this formation, dismounted men at arms with halberds don't act like schiltrons at all, 12 foot spears (early pike)are rather more trouble to cavalry.

billS
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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:02 pm

Re: Scottish medieval list 1250 to 1500.

Postby billS » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:44 am

I agree. I don't think they should be as versatile in attack as the later pike formations such as the Swiss, but they need a bit more than bog standard spears, especially in defence

As I read it they were more all round defensive hedges, so perhaps giving them something like the ability to fight equally well to the flank and rear, with none of the usual penalties might be worth looking at.

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Wayne Richards
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Re: Scottish medieval list 1250 to 1500.

Postby Wayne Richards » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:05 pm

Perhaps one option might be to allow them to remain stationary and form a "hedgehog" or pike square (although I had always associated this with 15th century Swiss rather than Scots). Whilst in this formation they could fight on all sides but could not move. Likewise they could not charge out of this formation. Cheers W.

Fedelmid
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Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:04 am

Re: Scottish medieval list 1250 to 1500.

Postby Fedelmid » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:07 pm

The early schiltrons formation I agree where of circular and static type(battle of Falkirk ,main battle of Bannockburn for example) but schiltons become rectilinear during the 14th century and where used for both attacking and defensive work.
If the schiltron developed from the shield wall (shield wall formations exist in the early scots medieval lists, even for normal spearmen) I find it odd there is no reference to any formation, shield wall or otherwise in the medieval list (the scots appear to have abandoned all formations for the next 250 years :cry: ) . The fact is the medieval scots did have early pike formations at the least from 1300AD and these should be included into the later part of the medieval list. A work around I have been using to play a schilton formation ,is the phalanx rule, with the of exception of they do not get the shield wall bonus against missile fire.(and of course don't get the trained ability to ignore the drift or combine units ) this seems to work ok and restores a vital factor to the scots medieval army .(I would like to hear what you think on this work around) Thanks. I use the basic "pike men" cost from the scots renaissance list, might be a bit pricey points wise however .

Fedelmid
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:04 am

Re: Scottish medieval list 1250 to 1500.

Postby Fedelmid » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:13 am

After a few tests ,the idea we have for our house rule on scots rectilinear schiltrons at the moment is as follows ,unit must be at least 3 bases wide and have depth bonus to qualify as a shiltron. Schiltrons are a closed order units.
Combat hits to the schiltrons front suffer a -1 to hit, Mounted troops gain no defence modifiers when charging the schiltrons front.
Schiltron pikes strike first in combat to the front of formation only. fighting in any difficult ground or across obstacles negates schiltron and depth bonuses .
Scots Schiltron troops have light armour. cost per base 16 pts.

A bit rough and ready but works a bit better, any advice on this would be very much appreciated thanks.


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